As the topic title says, this poll is about what you belive regarding
the age of the Earth and the Universe, how it came into existance, if we
evolved from monkeys, and so forth. The poll includes the three most
commonly held beliefs, from what I've encountered. If you feel that
there should be other options, please write a reply, and I'll add those.

Personally, I picked option 3: "No creator, 13.7 billion years, evolution".

(You might have seen an almost identical thread on CSGf )

I chose other, because I believe there was a creator, I believe in evolution at the same time but I don't think it took 13.7 billion years, but I'm not sure that it took 6,000 either.

Cheeseguy wrote:I don't think it took 13.7 billion years, but I'm not sure that it took 6,000 either.

What age would you say then? 13.7 billion years (give or take 0.1 billion) is the established scientifc estimate, and has been for the last 20 years or so.

Personally, I never throw out "6,000 years" because it isn't in the Bible. It actually came from a counting of the genealogies in the Bible, but the genealogies were misunderstood, thus resulting in an underestimation.

As far as old-earth/young-earth creationism, the Bible is a bit ambiguous about certain terms regarding what's translated as "day" today. While the word used usually refers to a literal day, it can easily be used to mean a long period of time as well. Personally, I believe both interpretations are correct. I don't really take sides on the debate, however.

What the bible defines as a day could have been equal to a decade in ancient times so the Bible is an unreliable source for determining the age of Earth, I agree.

But, at the same time I believe evolution is quite rapid and that the actual age of earth as creationists put it (6,000 years) is'nt near accurate. Instead, it I believe it is the actual time it took for humans to transition from the species that came before us and that the full transition from ape to human took longer than 6,000, but not 5-7 mil years as estimated.

That being said, I don't try to pinpoint the exact age of earth, all I believe is that it isn't 13.7 billion or 6,000, maybe somewhere perhaps halfway between the two makes more sense to me, IMO.

Just to clarify: 13.7 billion years refer to the age of the Universe (the Earth is about 4.5 billion years old), as does the (here given) biblical figure of 6 000 years. For the Bible though, it clearly states that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth", so they're they same unless there's alternate interpretations.

Until someone disproves radiometric dating and/or the half-life of certain periodic elements, there's really no question about the age. The good thing about scientific facts is that they are true whether you like it or not.

Scientific facts change as new evidence is produced. Therefore theories will change so they're only true for the time being, if/until new evidence is produced. So you can't really say that it's true whether a person likes it or not.

Cheeseguy wrote:Scientific facts change as new evidence is produced. Therefore theories will change so they're only true for the time being, if/until new evidence is produced. So you can't really say that it's true whether a person likes it or not.

They do change as new evidence is produced, unlike religious writings. The knowledge in the Bible is equivalent to that of humankind in second century, while our current scientifc facts (or theories if you will) are continously peer reviewed and put to the test. They are always based on our most current and proven research and observations, and in that sense they are always true.

Just keep in mind that religious writings aren't always true. "In the beginning God created the heavens and earth" is simply the theory that Christians choose to believe, therefore it is in their writing. The thing is, they will claim that it is the truth whether one likes it or not, when, in fact, like all religious beliefs, it is just conjecture that may or may not be true. But many religious writings do produce knowledge that holds true to these days, I agree.

Unlike religious claims, which as you write are true only to the believers, scientific truths are verifiable and falsifiable.

Cheeseguy wrote:But many religious writings do produce knowledge that holds true to these days, I agree.

Any examples?

The Bible of course does not speak about much science, since it was not written at a time where modern day science would make any sense. We do see a whole lot of accurate archeological information in the Bible, however.

There are some passages in the bible that indicate the earth being round (though it mentions circle several times, this could mean either flat or round). In addition, archaeological information has been recorded in the bible and used to discover ancient towns and cities.

The bible has nothing of interest in general science-wise that can be verified today. Just old theories mainly.

Well, as for me, I beleive that God created the universe, and I don't know since when.
The reason I'm saying God created the universe, is that in my beleif, God is outside our understanding or our imagination (since our imagination is only based on our surrounding), we cannot associate God to any physic laws (including time, time is just our prison), and it's not illogical or stupid to beleive in that, but it will be naiive indeed if one think that we know everything, and everything we don't know doesnt exist or is not possible, and science proved many times that we are wrong, and that there's alot we don't know, alot.
One more thing is, out whole universe, is not unique, and I think that it is an illusion, it is not really the way we see it, we are unable to see everything or to see how things really are.

I think that the universe functions as a video game, a program, where everything is programmed to function in an automatic way.
As for evolution, yes I do beleive in evolution, but not as a random process, an illogical evolution of events (it is normal to think that something is random or illogical if we can't understand it), but rather a part of a program, that have a specific way to run, one result that leads to another, I think that you all see that evolution is making creatures adapt better to it's environement, to be stronger in that surrounding and take the best advandage, to survive, I think is totally not random, or as it is called, natural selection, as for me, I'd rather call it God's selection.

After all, God calls us to walk on Earth, wonder, look, and try to know how life started and how things work, God created things in a logical way so we can understand it (an automated system), everything is there, or was there for a reason (even if we don't know what that reason is).
So I think, that there is always a way to get to it and to understand it (maybe not everything at least, maybe because of a biological limitation, or a physical limitation (ie.: time).

riiga wrote:Unlike religious claims, which as you write are true only to the believers, scientific truths are verifiable and falsifiable.

Cheeseguy wrote:But many religious writings do produce knowledge that holds true to these days, I agree.

Any examples?

[I swear] by Heaven and the Tariq! And what will convey to you what the Tariq is? The Star Piercing [the darkness]! (Qur'an, 86:1-3)

One more thing, Quran as a relegious book, is not a source of scientific knowledge or equations, you cannot extract science from it just like that, but rather another reason to beleive in Quran or God (say God or whatever you want, it's that that "more" that we don't know.), but it still a scientific truth.

There are many examples actually (the english translation just ruine it, just like these two).

Anyway, for this topic, let's keep God and relegion, two seperate things, even if you don't beleive in any relegion, you can still beleive in God (say what you want actually, but you know what I mean), because in this thread, we are talking about the existance of God and the origin of the universe in more phylosophical way than scientific (and scientific too effcorse) than a relegious one.

mod edit: combined all 3 posts. -cg

Logginin wrote:
The reason I'm saying God created the universe, is that in my beleif, God is outside our understanding or our imagination (since our imagination is only based on our surrounding), we cannot associate God to any physic laws (including time, time is just our prison), and it's not illogical or stupid to beleive in that, but it will be naiive indeed if one think that we know everything, and everything we don't know doesnt exist or is not possible, and science proved many times that we are wrong, and that there's alot we don't know, alot.

I personally feel the same way. God is not a being.. he's an entity. And yes, God is supernatural.. he does not adhere to actual physics. This is where what Christians call faith comes in... believing in something you can't see and in this case, believing in something that, when applied to physics and other sciences, frankly makes no sense. The reason for my said faith is because of a spiritual experience that I had (which this, again, makes no sense, but that is where faith comes in... you just "know")

One more thing is, out whole universe, is not unique, and I think that it is an illusion, it is not really the way we see it, we are unable to see everything or to see how things really are.

We can formulate our own speculations on what the universe IS, but I do believe in alter egos... not only that but I believe that people may have two spirits, both spirits in a different reality... one of which is different than what is accepted as the "physical" reality that most of us live in.

As for evolution, yes I do beleive in evolution, but not as a random process, an illogical evolution of events (it is normal to think that something is random or illogical if we can't understand it), but rather a part of a program, that have a specific way to run, one result that leads to another, I think that you all see that evolution is making creatures adapt better to it's environement, to be stronger in that surrounding and take the best advandage, to survive, I think is totally not random, or as it is called, natural selection, as for me, I'd rather call it God's selection.

This is exactly what I believe. God played a hand in evolution. Though, while it may not be totally random, it isn't completely natural either. God knew what animals needed to adapt to their environment and survive, and God allowed animals to evolve in the proper manner that they could.

After all, God calls us to walk on Earth, wonder, look, and try to know how life started and how things work, God created things in a logical way so we can understand it (an automated system), everything is there, or was there for a reason (even if we don't know what that reason is).

If that statement is derived from Biblical scripture, I personally feel that the Bible was written by humans, and humans lie. It's simply the Christian's take on what God is and what happened. Don't get me wrong, I believe in much of what the Bible has to say pertaining certain proverbs, and the death of Christ, but otherwise I believe that God doesn't call for us to study Earth to the best of our ability, we only do so because a trait that all humans share, some to a further extent than others, is curiosity and therefore we will attempt to "figure out" the universe, one way or another. Advances in science, of course, have made our lives considerably easier, which is one benefit to our curiosity

So I think, that there is always a way to get to it and to understand it (maybe not everything at least, maybe because of a biological limitation, or a physical limitation (ie.: time).

As humans evolve (and yes I believe humans are still evolving) we are becoming more capable of understanding everything that can possibly be understood. An alternate theory would be that as we make advancements in a primitive technology, it holds to keys to a more modern one. You can believe whatever you want, of course. As for time, while measuring it (another context of time, btw) has enabled us to "keep track" of it, I believe that time is endless, it never started, will never end. It is mind boggling, perhaps too much so to wrap your head around it.

One more thing, Quran as a relegious book, is not a source of scientific knowledge or equations, you cannot extract science from it just like that, but rather another reason to beleive in Quran or God (say God or whatever you want, it's that that "more" that we don't know.), but it still a scientific truth.

Back to the fact that theologically, any "god" is an entity, a supernatural one. Oftentimes though these religious writings will hold information that was once accepted.. for example, there are indications in the Bible that in those days people believed that earth is flat - clearly it isn't.

Anyway, for this topic, let's keep God and relegion, two seperate things, even if you don't beleive in any relegion, you can still beleive in God (say what you want actually, but you know what I mean)

That applies to any case. You do not have to be religious to believe in a "god". Religion is simply the beliefs SURROUNDING said god. Examples from Christianity (all denominations) would be the belief of an afterlife (either going to "heaven" or to "hell"), and then rituals such as baptism, communion, etc are what define religion. Belief in a god is simply believing that said god is in existence, period. You can, of course, pick and choose which concepts of actual religion you want to believe. That wouldn't necessarily make you religious, however, because in a broader sense "religion" is "following a religion." That of course is my personal belief.

Logginin wrote:As for evolution, yes I do beleive in evolution, but not as a random process, an illogical evolution of events (it is normal to think that something is random or illogical if we can't understand it), but rather a part of a program, that have a specific way to run, one result that leads to another, I think that you all see that evolution is making creatures adapt better to it's environement, to be stronger in that surrounding and take the best advandage, to survive, I think is totally not random, or as it is called, natural selection, as for me, I'd rather call it God's selection.

The problem with this view is that what you are describing is basically evolution, but attributing it to a god. As you write "evolution is making creatures adapt better to it's environement, to be stronger in that surrounding and take the best advandage, to survive", that is exactly what evolution is, it's just that we never see the failed attempts that evolution produces since it happens over such a long timespan. There is no need for a god in all of that, and so far science has managed explain it.

Logginin wrote:[I swear] by Heaven and the Tariq! And what will convey to you what the Tariq is? The Star Piercing [the darkness]! (Qur'an, 86:1-3)

What does this have to do with the discussion? If you like, I can also quote the Koran. It has quite som nasty parts.

Logginin wrote:One more thing, Quran as a relegious book, is not a source of scientific knowledge or equations, you cannot extract science from it just like that, but rather another reason to beleive in Quran or God (say God or whatever you want, it's that that "more" that we don't know.), but it still a scientific truth.

Could you clarify what you mean? It sounds like you're saying God's existance or the word of the Koran is a scientific truth. I'm sorry if I didn't get what you were saying.

Logginin wrote:(the english translation just ruine it, just like these two).

In what way is it ruined? I know many claim that the Koran can only be read and understood in Arabic, but that is like insisting that the Bible can only be read in Hebrew (or older languages).

Logginin wrote:Anyway, for this topic, let's keep God and relegion, two seperate things, even if you don't beleive in any relegion, you can still beleive in God (say what you want actually, but you know what I mean), because in this thread, we are talking about the existance of God and the origin of the universe in more phylosophical way than scientific (and scientific too effcorse) than a relegious one.

I agree that you don't need any particular religion or religious dogmas to believe in a god, but one should ask whether there is any reason to believe at all. Man created God in his own image, as a way of explaining the unexplained, for comfort in moments of need, as a way of telling stories. Later on this turned into organised religion, which became a means of controlling society. It seems quite a lot humans still feel the need to cling to this "delusion" if you so will. If you live in poor conditions, it is understandable to believe in a higher power. It acts as a comfort and glimpse of hope. Many phenomena that were once attributed to God(s) have now been explained by science, and there is few people to this day that believe that Thor is responsible for thunder or Ra responsible for the sun.

[quote="Cheeseguy"]

Logginin wrote:
If that statement is derived from Biblical scripture, I personally feel that the Bible was written by humans, and humans lie. It's simply the Christian's take on what God is and what happened. Don't get me wrong, I believe in much of what the Bible has to say pertaining certain proverbs, and the death of Christ, but otherwise I believe that God doesn't call for us to study Earth to the best of our ability, we only do so because a trait that all humans share, some to a further extent than others, is curiosity and therefore we will attempt to "figure out" the universe, one way or another. Advances in science, of course, have made our lives considerably easier, which is one benefit to our curiosity

It is actualyl from the quran, I don't memorise the verses exactly, but this is the meaning of them, infact, the first sura in Quran was Iqra, it means, "read".
Seeking knowledge and science, to work till the last minute of your life, is also jihad (on the contrary of the ppopular word jihad on the media), and a part of the relegion, because God cannot be worshiped with ignorance, God prefers educated people from ignorant people.

Back to the fact that theologically, any "god" is an entity, a supernatural one. Oftentimes though these religious writings will hold information that was once accepted.. for example, there are indications in the Bible that in those days people believed that earth is flat - clearly it isn't.

It's always about interpretation (I don't know much about the bible honestly), as for quran, Earth is already spherical, and no such thing about Earth being the center of the universe, and even more, life is not unique on Earth (in clear words).

That applies to any case. You do not have to be religious to believe in a "god". Religion is simply the beliefs SURROUNDING said god. Examples from Christianity (all denominations) would be the belief of an afterlife (either going to "heaven" or to "hell"), and then rituals such as baptism, communion, etc are what define religion. Belief in a god is simply believing that said god is in existence, period. You can, of course, pick and choose which concepts of actual religion you want to believe. That wouldn't necessarily make you religious, however, because in a broader sense "religion" is "following a religion." That of course is my personal belief.

I agree, you don't have to follow any relegion to beleive in God, also relegion can be manupulated by some people to use for their own purposes, but in the case of Islam, Quran haven't changed, but kings and people interpretation changes over time, somekind of propaganda sometimes (you see that very much in saudi arabia today, and many other places).

riiga wrote:

Logginin wrote:
The problem with this view is that what you are describing is basically evolution, but attributing it to a god. As you write "evolution is making creatures adapt better to it's environement, to be stronger in that surrounding and take the best advandage, to survive", that is exactly what evolution is, it's just that we never see the failed attempts that evolution produces since it happens over such a long timespan. There is no need for a god in all of that, and so far science has managed explain it.

What I said, again, the God created an automated system, no need to keep changing everything and manupulating it all the time, so is there any wrong to beleive that God created the universe and it's physic laws? Then why do you think God created the physic laws?
So I really don't think that this beleif can affect any scientific research or theories about the universe, or evolution.
By not random, I didn't mean being manupulated all the time, but rather a part of the system, an already made program that works in a certin way, that because we don't understand, we say it's random.

Logginin wrote:[I swear] by Heaven and the Tariq! And what will convey to you what the Tariq is? The Star Piercing [the darkness]! (Qur'an, 86:1-3)

What does this have to do with the discussion? If you like, I can also quote the Koran. It has quite som nasty parts.

It is about a type of stars, I'm not expecting you to take this link in any serious way, but here it is anyway: http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_38.html

Further more, Quran, is not a scientific book, but it is there to deal with the human life.

& pleas, be my guest, show me these nasty parts (but in a different thread, we don't want to make spam here, this thread is not about relegions).

Could you clarify what you mean? It sounds like you're saying God's existance or the word of the Koran is a scientific truth. I'm sorry if I didn't get what you were saying.

I clearly did not say any of that, that's your own interpretation, my point there, was as an answer to your saying that relegious books can't have any correct scientific statements of information, so I posted a counter answer.

& saying it again, Quran, is not a scientific book, but that doesnt mean to find some correct things in it.
Also, it's natural for me as a muslim to beleive that Quran is God's revelation to the prophet Mohamed (pbuh).


Away from relegion, you seems to be bothered with the beleif of the existence of God, while it have no effect on the scientific progress or theories about the beginning of the universe of it's end.

God, or say what you want, I don't know what or who (or whatever) God is, but what I know is that there is alot what we don't know, and I assume that you agree with me about this point, can exist, if you beleive that the universe popped out in a magical way just like that (saying magical only means that we don't know or can't understand how), why can't you beleive in God, as that "more" that we don't know, we can't see, but yet exist, something that makes a pattern in the universe and make everything connected, something we can't understand or see or know (just like we can't understand of imagine how life in a 6th or 5th dimention would be, or whatever dimension that is, or even how life would be in another univese with different physic laws.)

Logginin wrote:(the english translation just ruine it, just like these two).

In what way is it ruined? I know many claim that the Koran can only be read and understood in Arabic, but that is like insisting that the Bible can only be read in Hebrew (or older languages).

Arabic have more accurate words for certin matters, that in english, you have to write a whole sentence or many words to write it and give it the same meaning, and that is ot onyl arabic, many languages have some words that don't have a similar word in any other languages.
(in the case of Quran mostly) Also Arabic have difficult grammar, that changing one letter or pronounciation can change the whole meaning, also changing the order of words and phrases can change the meaning, not to mention the expression, the Quran also have some kind of a poetic writing, that makes it entertaining and deep to read, and to hear, and translating that, can sometimes change the meanins to less accurate sentenses, or a messy sentence (try to translate an english poetry or an arabic poetry to a different language and see what you get, it loose it's flavor and meaning).

I agree that you don't need any particular religion or religious dogmas to believe in a god, but one should ask whether there is any reason to believe at all. Man created God in his own image, as a way of explaining the unexplained, for comfort in moments of need, as a way of telling stories. Later on this turned into organised religion, which became a means of controlling society. It seems quite a lot humans still feel the need to cling to this "delusion" if you so will. If you live in poor conditions, it is understandable to believe in a higher power. It acts as a comfort and glimpse of hope. Many phenomena that were once attributed to God(s) have now been explained by science, and there is few people to this day that believe that Thor is responsible for thunder or Ra responsible for the sun.

God created man in hes own image, that can have many interpreations each have a different theory, also, this is still a relegious part.
I also agree about relegion being used sometimes to controll societies, but it can also be used to orgenise societies, try to put the liberal life standars and liberal democracy in a third world country now and see what you get, or in some middle ages nation, it's always about mentality, and the human education, the more educated people are, the more better they will understand their relegion and use it for good and developement and good life, and the more ignorant they are, the more they will use relegion to controll and to make propaganda, and to destroy, it's been always in people's hand (or shall I say, minds).

True many phenomenas that have been attributed to God (like what is light) have been explained by science, and other stuff, but being rich, does not mean to change beleifs, in that case, being rich and beleive that there's nothing more (say God or say what you want, because it doesnt matter what you say) they will just have a depressed boring life, and sometimes endeup with suicide, while a poor guy beleiving God will always pray for God and hope for God's mercey and beleive that one day will be better, that will certinly improve hes life and make him happy, and even have goals and trust in himself and God to reach hes goals.
(Also there's nothing wrong to say that God makes thunder or whatever you like, since God created the universe and it's physic laws, so yes, but by that I don't mean that it happens in a divine un-explained way that we can't understand or something,it's just a beleif in the greatness of God, for example I can say that, and I will still ask question about how is it done, how does it happen, and etc... that is not a reason to stop questioning, we always need science, we always need more, that's why we can never look at someting and say or think nothing about it, that's our nature, we are curious.)

Holy crap this are some long posts! O.o

Anyway I do not believe in a God or creator I believe there was the big bang ( which was an opening via wormhole to another dimension (Multiverse theory) ) That spewed matter out in to our known dimension and clumps of rock and what not gathered to form planets moons etc. Within these rocks are little organisms that slowly evolved and became all the animals we know of. Just my opinion.

Logginin wrote:
because God cannot be worshiped with ignorance, God prefers educated people from ignorant people.

If I believed that God actually needed worship (I do pray and I find that great plenty) it'd be very arrogant, contrary to beliefs that god is perfect. I and even many Christians feel that it doesn't matter how you worship God. Just my two cents.

What I said, again, the God created an automated system, no need to keep changing everything and manupulating it all the time, so is there any wrong to beleive that God created the universe and it's physic laws? Then why do you think God created the physic laws?

Sort of an unrelated answer on my part, but people will believe what they want to. Their beliefs suit them and them alone, in my opinion.

So I really don't think that this beleif can affect any scientific research or theories about the universe, or evolution.

Christianity has it that evolution simply did not occur, among other things. And going back to what I said about religion in my previous post here, it all depends on if you follow a religion. If you do, then yes, it does affect scientific theories. The belief alone doesn't.

& saying it again, Quran, is not a scientific book, but that doesnt mean to find some correct things in it.

I think the same thing applies to the Bible. No religious writing is reliable for any scientific information, but that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't true things in them, whether you believe in a god or not.

Away from relegion, you seems to be bothered with the beleif of the existence of God, while it have no effect on the scientific progress or theories about the beginning of the universe of it's end.

When it comes to "God", he can't be proved or disproved, imo. Some people believe in gods because that's what suits them, it doesn't necessarily make them real or fake. As you stated, it has no effect on scientific theories if you just believe that a god is real, WITHOUT following a particular religion.

(saying magical only means that we don't know or can't understand how)

If you're referring to the big bang in a broader sense (how it occurred, not the simple belief that the universe just started at one point), then it actually is "known" (albeit the fact that there are many different theories) how it occurred. But science changes as evidence is produced, therefore, I don't believe we can know for sure.

the more educated people are, the more better they will understand their relegion and use it for good and developement and good life, and the more ignorant they are, the more they will use relegion to controll and to make propaganda, and to destroy, it's been always in people's hand (or shall I say, minds)

So are you saying that uneducated third-world people will attempt to use their religion to control other people and educated people will not? If so, that's clearly not the case. There are many rich, and educated people in many religions that still do attempt to control society. Those attempts in modern days though fail, the way I see it. I believe it is plain wrong and frankly arrogant to attempt to convert other people, because once again, people's beliefs suit them and them alone, God is not proven, or disproven.

True many phenomenas that have been attributed to God (like what is light) have been explained by science, and other stuff, but being rich, does not mean to change beleifs, in that case, being rich and beleive that there's nothing more (say God or say what you want, because it doesnt matter what you say) they will just have a depressed boring life, and sometimes endeup with suicide while a poor guy beleiving God will always pray for God and hope for God's mercey and beleive that one day will be better, that will certinly improve hes life and make him happy, and even have goals and trust in himself and God to reach hes goals.

It's true that possessions don't make you a truly happy person. But "growing" and "improving" yourself does as you become a better person. It's the adage, we all live and learn. And as a believer in God, I feel that it's difficult (but not impossible) to do so without God.

Also there's nothing wrong to say that God makes thunder or whatever you like, since God created the universe and it's physic laws, so yes, but by that I don't mean that it happens in a divine un-explained way that we can't understand or something,it's just a beleif in the greatness of God

I might be cynical, but I think God has better things to do than to play with thunder and any other natural event that occurs.