Before I begin, remember to stay calm and don't attack someone else because of their opinions or disagreements, but there's no need to tip-toe around your views and not offend people. I think people should be able to express their opinions without being attacked because of them. It's possible to have a civilized discussion about such touchy topics without getting out of hand, while clearly expressing your stance.

I'll start by saying that, at earlier points in my life, I was a devout Christian. Since then my views have changed quite a lot. I believe in "God" but not to a point where I'm a "Christian".

I really don't believe much of what Christianity and the church say, and I believe that a lot of things the church professes is false. I'm not saying ALL Christians are this way, but some denominations are against it whether in a large form or small. I think a lot of denomination's stances on sexual matters including sexual preference, as well as remaining married or unmarried, divorce, adopting vs birthing a child, and especially their take on other religions, are false. I've observed that a larger portion of the church is against this matter, a small portion demonstrating irrational hatred toward it. As humans with a free will, I believe that we can make those choices for ourselves without others deeming us to be hellbound or generally a bad person. Myself, I believe that God is in existence not to judge and condemn people.. and I believe that society in general should be the same way. In other words, one person isn't better or worse than the next because of their stance on these issues.

As for my take on Christianity, I don't believe in it and frankly I strongly disagree with it on the basis of what I explained. Basically, Christianity got it wrong. But, I do give it credit for preserving a basic faith in God over thousands of years. A belief in God is different than being a Christian, and my belief is not based on things such as being a "good" person, reading the Bible, going to church, things of that nature don't make you any better of a person than the next one.

As for Creation, I want to think that God has everything "set up" so we can live and sustain, but Earth and the universe in general has been around forever effectively. I think the universe is there so we can explore and colonize it, and with that in mind, I think that everything on earth is for us to take and utilize and advance forward.

With that said, I don't look at God as being a spiritual being, but more like the universe and our small corner of it (being Earth) as a whole, and with that said, I like to believe that the universe is effectively infinite and never ending, and has never began, and will never end. As for death and life, I've taken reincarnation to consideration.. but I don't really believe in it. I believe in a Heaven and Hell, but I have no real stance on who goes where, to be honest.

If you have your own opinions on religion or a disagreement about one religion, feel free to express that.. in a respectable manner as not to offend others.

You've certainly got a pretty odd set of beliefs that are probably the complete opposite of what I, a relatively-devout Christian who actually went to Church today, would say. But I'm going to respect them and not argue against them because you've got good reasoning. You might be looking at the Catholics a little more than the other denominations though

My only thing that makes me mad is that Christians, Jews, and Muslims (especially the latter two) can't get along. Sad to think it's the same God that's wondering why they can't make a compromise. All three are supposedly going to the same heaven/hell afterlife because it's the same God.

I really just stay nestled in my little corner and don't worry about religion.

K50 wrote:My only thing that makes me mad is that Christians, Jews, and Muslims (especially the latter two) can't get along. Sad to think it's the same God that's wondering why they can't make a compromise. All three are supposedly going to the same heaven/hell afterlife because it's the same God.

The problem is that all three believe in the same God.. however each have their own beliefs about him. Each religion believes that a certain people are going to hell, the next one might believe those people are going to heaven.. that sort of thing. If you ask me, it's just the nature of three religions is why they can't get along. I hate to point fingers.. but Muslims are especially this way.

Like I said, I really don't have an opinion on who goes to heaven or hell.. too many different opinions floating around. I've been influenced by the church.. and especially my parents who believe that non-Christians are going to hell.. a thing they have made clear to me.. but of course I never believed that.

We'll find out who goes to heaven or to hell when that time comes.. if it comes.

You and I have certainly come to very different conclusions as far as this matter goes. I'm a Christian, so I don't really agree with all of this from a personal point of view, but I deeply respect your willingness to think about what you believe. I think that, even on matters like religion, people should be willing to think about what they believe. It's actually something I've struggled with numerous times.

As K50 said, I think that people of all religions should be able to get along. We can disagree (of course people of different religions will disagree on things), but we shouldn't hate each other for those things. I feel that Christianity is quite different from many religions because we aren't being unbiblical for loving those of other religions. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with everything that those of other religions believe in, but I still respect them. I don't mind sharing my beliefs with them, but I won't force them.

I do see where you are coming from, though, and I respect your willingness to think about these things for yourself.

I personally don't look at the bible as the complete, whole, absolute truth. But kudos to Christianity and the church in general for preserving it for thousands of years.

If you ask me, Christianity for a few, is just a means of controlling the public. This is like any other religion.. it's just a way of getting the public to do what they want. Christianity is the same way, but professing their faith to everyone (trying to convert if you ask me) and deeming them to be "saved" if they do this and do that. I think god makes the decision for your salvation or your being "born again".

I don't necessarily think that all religions are simply trying to "control the public." I personally have a hard time with this idea, primarily because the Bible wasn't really written by one person who was just trying to fool the masses. If the people writing the Bible were fooled themselves, they most likely wouldn't have had the intentions of fooling the masses because these people risked their lives for their faith. The Bible, for instance, had many different authors, over many different time periods. And it wasn't just some story that gradually got revised over time to something that could be bought by more people. If you read the Bible from start to finish, you'll find that it is a story that connects from beginning to end. It was formed over many many years, one piece at a time, and yet the final result is a story that connects from the start to the end, and it connects historically too. There is an astounding degree of history found in the Bible. I could explain, but I'm pressed for time at the moment.

I just feel, personally, that the people who were writing the Bible probably weren't trying to fool people. If you look at the characters in the Bible and the different authors, these people risked their lives over and over again for what they believed in. Of course, people of other religions risk their lives for their faiths too, but they too believe that their faith is true. People won't just die for something they know is false (or at least I've never seen someone die for something they know is false) People die for something that they believe is true. The authors probably didn't think that they were deceived as they were penning down the words of the Bible.

I don't really know how to explain it. I just feel like, from a personal standpoint, religion means so much more, but I do see where you are coming from and I completely respect your beliefs. This is just the way that I see things, and I just wanted to share my point of view.

[EDIT: I just wanted to clarify that nothing in this post has any intent to offend anyone of any religion. I'm just sharing my point of view on this matter. I see this as a discussion where we can share our points of view and talk about things. If anyone reading this post feels that I have offended them in any way, please feel absolutely free to let me know.]

It wasn't the Bible writers that fooled people, it's the preachers and teachers who use their writings or even their modifications of the bible to control people. I believe the bible is mostly true, however it's inevitable that some parts of it have been changed over the course of thousands of years.

Well, I hope I can hop in and just starting rambling.

The last post or two have brought up the issue "controlling people", but I have always wondered what people thought of the general interpretation.

I guess in Christianity, it comes down to a literal or metaphorical interpretation of the Bible, right?

I like to think that the Bible is partially true because it was written by humans and humans lie. There are things that i take metamorphically and things I take literally, for me it comes down to spiritual experiences for me and not being controlled by official dogma. Basically I'm saying that I don't believe the Bible, but I believe the truth in the bible God has chosen to reveal to me, even if it can't be proven but it can't be disproven either.

In a physical sense the Bible could have been warped by bad translations which lead to bad interpretations which are sometimes false. It can be people interpreting it the way they want to interpret it to bend it to their will. Many things in the bible have been misinterpreted. Just as an example I don't think a loving God would damn someone to hell for being a homosexual. We don't choose what we like or dislike, and some things that people simply can't help doing are deemed as evil. So really the problem doesn't rest in the religion itself but its followers and the way they want to interpret it and the way they want to use the religion, if they want to use it as a guide for their life, use it to control (read: convert) other people or simply ignore it.

That said I believe in God, I believe the words of God in the Bible but I'm not bound by them and I simply don't buy some of it. And I will continue to believe in God even if some scientist or physicist can prove the creation of the universe had nothing to do with God. My belief is not based on things but is based on a strong spiritual experience. I give thanks to God for everything that we have even though I know that he can't be proven. The prayer I talk of is acknowledging that there is a God who is infinite and much greater and much more powerful than I am.

@Cheeseguy: So, basically, you are saying that you believe it is up to the person who believes in God to define what God is for them? That there is basically no absolute standard for "God?"

blakesterville wrote:@Cheeseguy: So, basically, you are saying that you believe it is up to the person who believes in God to define what God is for them? That there is basically no absolute standard for "God?"

It isn't voluntary but some people make God what they want to make him.. whether or not it's true. It's their standard for God. Although it's not the standard.
But, even if their "version" of God is false then I think people should be allowed to believe it anyways.

edit: I felt I should add that everyone will believe that their religion is true. I'm no exception. I believe God is real.. but I won't go around telling everyone "My religion is true and yours isn't and you're sentenced to eternal damnation because you don't believe my religion."

God came to exercise forgiveness and mercy, not judgment and punishment, and that's the basis of why I said the above.

I'd like to add something here that I've established after doing nearly two months of thinking into the fact of a deity creating the universe.

There is absolutely no purpose for reality and the universe.

Again I fundamentally believe the universe has been around forever. But in an endless amount of space.. an endless amount of time.. there's bound to be other life sustaining planets.. other planets that could have also been created as a result of some crazy thing that happened over the course of infinite time in infinite space.. on the other hand it could have just been there. I don't believe a deity purposefully put us on this planet because it's the only planet that can sustain life.. it's life sustaining so naturally, it's going to sustain life. That's why I feel lead to believe in extraterrestrials.. and even civilizations which might even be more powerful and more advanced than we ever will be before the end of the world (not end of the universe and reality mind you)

Everything has to end.. but the amazing thing is the universe is a self regulating entity.. something is created through some means, and other things are destroyed. It's a true concept on earth too.. it's a self regulating system (just look at the watercycle and how weathering can terraform.. albeit extremely slowly)

It's rather extreme but I believe the solar system and our portion (i'm talking farther than even the most powerful telescopes have seen when I say "portion") of the universe could have come about as a means of crazy things happening. But I feel more inclined to believe that earth itself is young.. my guess is about 7,000 compared to scientific research I've done. Yes, I know of the big bang and all that.. it's a perfectly valid theory. But having my own warped and rather cynical perceptions that are nowhere near close to what the "standard" perceptions would be.. because I am and always have been extreme in terms of averageness.

Believe me.. I have scientific reasoning for my belief in a young earth.. but it'd take a few hours and a 20 page essay so I'm not going to share that reasoning.

Cheeseguy wrote:That's why I feel lead to believe in extraterrestrials

Sounds like an idea for a different thread to me

Well this is an interesting topic... one you would normally never see.

Scientifically speaking, if extraterrestrials are out there, we haven't seen a hint of them yet.

blakesterville wrote:Scientifically speaking, if extraterrestrials are out there, we haven't seen a hint of them yet.

Unless you believe roswell was real (which I don't)

While on the subject of Aliens, I do think it is possible there is some life on other planets somewhere, but more like bactreria, or microbial life. Not like aliens like ET or others portrayed in movies and things. (For those I would have to see them in person to believe)

Well, the theory remains that one being evolved into a more powerful one.
As far as opinion is concerned I'm mixed as far as evolution goes, but if microbial life evolved into something else.. and the chain went up until humans evolved.. then there's no reason that can't happen on other life sustaining planets.. unless said planets contain things which have been completely unknown to humans on earth.

While on the subject of evolution.. I think and believe it's entirely possible that humans are still evolving, but so slowly that it goes unnoticed. (look at the earlobe for instance)

Well, I thought I would throw my 4 cents in.

I am a Church of Christ Christian. I go to Church every Sunday Morning, Sunday Night, and Wednesday Night. I have a Bible in my room, and truck. The Church of Christ has alot of different beliefs as opposed to Baptist, Methodist, ect.

We/I Believe in baptism from immersion. Which means one must go completely under water during the baptism. We also believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. We have nothing against no marriage, as that is a persons choice. Cursing (which I need to work on) is something we believe should not be done. We try to convert people to Christ, not for controlling the public, or thinking of our selves as higher, but to help them gain eternal life in heaven, instead of eternity in hell.

There is alot more I gain explain if you are interested, but that is the outline of how our church, and fellow Church of Christ Congregations believe.

~Clayton

Frex_Ceafus wrote:We try to convert people to Christ, not for controlling the public, or thinking of our selves as higher, but to help them gain eternal life in heaven, instead of eternity in hell.

You could argue that every religion does that though, in some form or another

Anyway I'm Catholic

I go to church on Sunday (usually I find myself walking in 10 minutes late though) and I believe in what most catholics believe in, Purgatory, reconciliation (although I never go), you know all the essentials.

Frex_Ceafus wrote:We/I Believe in baptism from immersion. Which means one must go completely under water during the baptism.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Bible never said that it was required to go completely under the water. Keep in mind also that the Bible plainly says that actions will not earn your salvation.

Frex_Ceafus wrote:We also believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. We have nothing against no marriage, as that is a persons choice.

While on the topic of gay marriage I'm against it myself, but that's only because I'm not too fond of a heterosexual marriage.

Frex_Ceafus wrote:Cursing (which I need to work on) is something we believe should not be done.

Cursing is just words, nothing more. What the bible says about "words have power to both heal and destroy" is a fundamentally true concept though.

Frex_Ceafus wrote:We try to convert people to Christ, not for controlling the public, or thinking of our selves as higher, but to help them gain eternal life in heaven, instead of eternity in hell.

A persons salvation relies entirely on what God wants and not what people want, and I believe that it's unethical for a person to declare that someone has gained life in heaven. Not saying that a person revealing Christ to a person can't be part of God's plan for someone's salvation, because sometimes this is the exact case.

I'm not attacking your beliefs, I'm just countering yours with what I think. I strongly believe in God, I believe that Christ's death is the reason why, if God allows, for us to gain eternal life in heaven. Mayorm is exactly correct however that all religions will attempt to convert people to help them "gain" eternal life in their idea of heaven, and it's no different than Christians converting to help them gain eternal life in their idea.

I'd like to bring up an important point while we're having this conversation, genital mutilation. I think that, unlike what the Jews believe, Circumcision is NO LONGER a requirement (caps for emphasis). It was simply their covenant, and was rendered null and void with the death of Christ. Without their being any good medical reason for it (except for some certain diseases and conditions) to me there's absolutely no reason for it at all.

Thoughts? (btw, try to keep it vague while on the subject)

Cheeseguy wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong but the Bible never said that it was required to go completely under the water. Keep in mind also that the Bible plainly says that actions will not earn your salvation.

Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

— Matthew 28:18–19 (NIV)

5 Steps of Salvation:
Hear: (Rom.10:17).
Believe: (Heb.11:6).
Repent: (Matthew 10:32).
Confess: (Matthew 10:32).
Be Baptized: (Acts 2:38).

Take some time to get to read the bible, and everything will make sense

Cheeseguy wrote:Cursing is just words, nothing more. What the bible says about "words have power to both heal and destroy" is a fundamentally true concept though.

You shalt not use the lords name in vain... Exodus 20:7
Examples [censored -k50]
Oh My God
Good God
ect..

Cheeseguy wrote:A persons salvation relies entirely on what God wants and not what people want, and I believe that it's unethical for a person to declare that someone has gained life in heaven. Not saying that a person revealing Christ to a person can't be part of God's plan for someone's salvation, because sometimes this is the exact case.

I never said we declared them saved, I said we try to convert them to Christ, therefore getting them involved in bible study's, church, ect. Think before trying to interpret

Cheeseguy wrote:I'd like to bring up an important point while we're having this conversation, genital mutilation. I think that, unlike what the Jews believe, Circumcision is NO LONGER a requirement (caps for emphasis). It was simply their covenant, and was rendered null and void with the death of Christ. Without their being any good medical reason for it (except for some certain diseases and conditions) to me there's absolutely no reason for it at all.

I agree, circumcision is not required any more.

Anymore Bible verses needed?

There are actually some medical benefits of circumcision, but I don't want to delve deep into that side of things. I think that there is certainly a lot of symbolism that goes into it. Circumcision was one of those things that, in the Bible, God used to set His people apart from the other nations, among many other things. Through Christ, it is no longer something that is required.

Frex_Ceafus wrote:Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, I'm completely aware of that. Baptising to me however, is a simply symbolic. Keep in mind that I don't believe everything that the Bible says and that much of it is metamorphic.

Frex_Ceafus wrote:
Hear: (Rom.10:17).
Believe: (Heb.11:6).
Repent: (Matthew 10:32).
Confess: (Matthew 10:32).
Be Baptized: (Acts 2:38).

While that may be the steps, a soverign God can still control the circumstances, when, and how salvation is gained and who can and can't.

Frex_Ceafus wrote:You shalt not use the lords name in vain...

In this case I must agree. However, swear words that don't even vaguely have anything to do with God are an exception. The term "swear word" in modern society is more or less just something that others may consider offensive. It's the old adage "words have the power to heal and destroy." Words like those you mentioned however, I can see what you mean about those.

Frex_Ceafus wrote:I never said we declared them saved, I said we try to convert them to Christ, therefore getting them involved in bible study's, church, ect.

I never said that you or other members of the Church of Christ were that way. Keep in mind that several churches I've gone to (with an emphasis on the Assembly of God) were very human-oriented when it came to salvation. I've observed this in some groups and in others I haven't.

Now back onto circumcision...

blakesterville wrote:There are actually some medical benefits of circumcision, but I don't want to delve deep into that side of things.

I agree, that'd be more fitting for the political thread. Circumcision in modern times is more politically oriented than anything else (except in the arab world maybe). Being circumcised myself, and doing a lot of research into the difference between retaining foreskin and being circumcised I haven't managed to find any good medical reason for it.. except for a certain one.. I forgot the name of it though.

blakesterville wrote:I think that there is certainly a lot of symbolism that goes into it.

When Christ died circumcision was no longer required. But the Jews carried on the tradition of circumcision and some even believe it's still a religious requirement. It's all about symbolism and tradition.

blakesterville wrote:Circumcision was one of those things that, in the Bible, God used to set His people apart from the other nations, among many other things.

It was their covenant, I don't remember what verse that was specified in, but it said something along the lines of circumcision being the symbol of their covenant.